007 Ruger LCP, Ruger Plant

[Gail]

I had a small problem with episode 007. There was some kind of glitch in the code that linked the audio to the Ruger slide show. It is fixed now so if you were unable to download or play it before please try it again.

thanks,
Gail

[Kenn Blanchard]

we all have glitches and if we had production crew and audio folks, then we could produce phenomenal crap BUT since we don't.  KUDOS babe.  YOU ROCK.  Great content.  This was another super episode.  You got into the Ruger factory, talking to the reps.  ENVY, envy, envy.  Plus you got all those instructors to talk about firearms.  WHAT A GREAT PODCAST! 

[Gail]

Thanks Kenn,

You're making me blush    I am the crew and I am still learning all of this stuff. that Ruger interview had a terrible hum from the air conditioning, I think, it took me forever to get it down to a tolerable level without making the voices sound weird. I was asking everyone I know "do you know anything about sound engineering?" to which I got only one reply "no". Then my DSL kept going out, that happens when it rains here. (Constant battle with the phone co.) and on and on and on. Hardware issues, software issues, connection issues, I've had then all in the last couple of weeks. Now my digital camera is toast. Hmmm, maybe there is a reason the used to call me "crash" at work.

Gail

[melensdad]

Gail, just want to echo what Kenn said, episode 7 was great, listened to it last evening.

Struck me as interesting that there was a bit of discussion that the Ruger LCP would make a great "third" gun.  As it was described by the panel, I took that to mean that it would me a back up to your back up gun.

One question that I have, that stems from that, is that is it really wise to carry multiple "types" of handguns.  For example, if someone trains with a 1911 pattern pistols, where the safety clicks down under thumb pressure, would it be unwise for them to use something like a Walther PPK/s where the safety rotates up and away?  And to take it a step further, then carry a 'third' gun that has no external safety and a tiny grip like the LCP?

I'm coming at this from a muscle memory & high stress situation sort of hypothesis where I suspect that most of us, who are not professional pistoleros but have some training and hopefully a good deal of practice, carry our guns for daily protection of self & family.  By switching between different types of guns could we find ourselves in a situation where our thumb is instinctively trying push down on the safety but the gun in our hand has a safety that swings up and away?  Or where we grab full fisted our gun, but in the case of the LCP reviewed in your show find that the tiny grip places our thumb in the way of our trigger finger such that a full depression of the trigger is not possible without shifting the thumb?  That lost second it takes to correct that error created by years of muscle memory may be our last second on earth.  I'm not sure that any amount of training with multiple types of handguns will actually apply in that one moment. 

To put it another way, I just got back from driving in England.  While driving on the 'wrong' side of the road was not too hard if you were following traffic, when on a side road, or worse yet when turning onto another road, my natural instinct was to pull the car over to the right side of the road.  Then upon returning to Chicago's O'Hare airport I hopped in the car for the drive home and found no problems driving again . . . until the next morning when I got up to drive to church.  Pulled out of the driveway and drove about a quarter mile down the road on the wrong side (fortunately I live on a private road with no traffic!).

[Gail]

I have to agree with you about the muscle memory thing and the different types of safeties. In a high stress situation that would be asking for problems. I think that's why most of us, no matter which primary gun we are carrying, use a S&W "J" frame for a backup gun. It is pretty much just point and shoot since by the time you need to go to a backup you are already in deep doo-doo, simple is better. That said, I do like the little LCP since it is smaller and flatter than a "J" frame and it fits my carry needs. Women's front pants pockets usually are not as deep as men's and it is harder to fit a gun in there. You may have noticed that we females are shaped a little differently and sometimes it get a little tight in that front pocket. 
So even though the LCP is small and requires a bit of a different grip to shoot it, some might even say that a 380 is too small a caliber for personal protection, having it as a backup is better than having no backup. Since I got the LCP I always have a backup gun. I just put a Crimson Trace Laser on it which will make it even easier to just point and shoot. And yes, it sometimes is my third gun because four would be ostentatious. 

Gail

[melensdad]

I have to agree with you about the muscle memory thing and the different types of safeties. In a high stress situation that would be asking for problems. I think that's why most of us, no matter which primary gun we are carrying, use a S&W "J" frame for a backup gun. It is pretty much just point and shoot. . .

OK so now consider this.  Presume your primary gun has a long heavy double action (in relative terms) pull that is very similar to the S&W J frame's trigger pull, then your back up gun is very similar to your primary gun.  But presume you have a cocked and locked 1911 which has a very short and comparatively light trigger pull as your primary gun, the long/heavy-ish trigger on the "J" frame will probably cause you to pull your shot after switching guns under a stress situation.  Same would be true if you had any of other semi-autos which can be carried with a SA first shot.  The new breed of striker fired "tactical tupperware" pistols typically have much lighter triggers than revolvers, but many have long-ish trigger pulls so a transition from one of those to a 'J' frame might not be too much of a stretch.

I'm not trying to argue, but really trying to look for answers.

To my mind, after owning all sorts of guns of all types, it is becoming more and more obvious to me that we should practice and carry a single 'type' of gun, and if we carry a back up gun it should have a similar trigger type, even if the gun/caliber is smaller and lighter, I'm thinking that the trigger and operational characteristics should be very similar.

I wonder what your panel would say about that?

[Gail]

I'll send it out to the panel and see what kind of responses we get from the others.

Gail

[Gail]

Well, I sent it out to the group and I only got one who wanted to respond. I am posting Chris Christian's response here. He sent it to me to post for him. I don't think he goes to any forums, ever, not even this one and for crying out loud, he doesn't even have speakers on his computer. So here is Chris' reply:

Response to melensdad

I read your posts regarding “muscle memory & high stress situations” that implied that a back up gun should have the same operating characteristics/controls as the primary gun. Theoretically, that makes a lot of sense. In fact you can read that line of thought in a lot of gun mags, penned by some writers that haven’t a clue, but did need to fill page space.

Unfortunately, that upper level academic theory often runs into a brick wall in the Real World.
 
Point One: What is the purpose of a back up gun? It’s there to provide you with a gun that will enable you to continue to shoot - and get your tender butt out of harms way - if your primary gun is not functioning.

Why would your primary gun not be functioning? Let’s look at the reasons you can have a primary gun failure. First, it could be mechanical - a jam from improper maintenance. Second - a faulty round of ammo. Third - the gun might have been taken from you in a CQB struggle. Fourth - and this is more common than you might think - the gun was struck by an opponent’s bullet, which also injures your primary (strong side) hand/arm. Or, you may just have run out of
bullets and don’t have time to reload ( see NY Reload). Or, you may be flat on your back with a 200 pound assailant stepping on your primary arm that is holding the gun and pinning it - and you - to the ground. Or, it could be something else.

If none of the above occurs, you don’t need a back up gun. If any of the above occurs, you could wind up dead without one. With that in mind the next question is where do you carry this back up gun?

The obvious answer (at least from those of us who have BTDT on the streets - I have ten years in that regard and the scars to prove it) is somewhere where it can be accessed with either hand, or at the very least quickly accessed with the weak hand ( see above for reasons primary gun not available).

So what is the best back up gun to carry in that position? That depends of your circumstances and your legal “mandate”.

If you are LEO or military (I was both) the concept of carrying a smaller version of your issue gun with the same make and operating control/function as the primary makes sense. Not because of the “muscle memory & high stress” theory, but simply because a downsized version of the primary gun can normally use the same magazines as the primary gun. Consider this: If your issue weapon is a Glock 17 and your back up is a Glock 26 you can lose your primary and continue on with the 26. Ditto for an M&P 9mm and a M&P Compact 9mm. You’ve got a smaller gun but you can still dig into your ammo pouches for more loads.

That’s important for these two groups because they not only have the legal “mandate” to protect themselves, but they also have the responsibility to resolve the issue. They can’t normally just get clear of a self-defense situation and then run away. They have to finish it.
Civilians (which is where this podcast that you questioned was directed to) don’t have the “responsibility to resolve”. Their only legal mandate is to “survive”.

The best back up gun for a civilians ( remember - that’s where this podcast was directed) is one that can be carried offside, employed quickly at close range, and allow the shooter to get the hell out of there.

In that regard, the same operating controls as the primary gun are meaningless. If your primary gun (your example) is a cocked&locked 1911, does that mean that you need to stick a downsized version of that in your pocket? Ever tried to dig one of those out quickly? They snag, the beavertail and hammer are a pain in the ass to dig out of a pocket. They also pick up normal pocket lint (even in a quality pocket holster) that can get into the hammer channel and prevent a solid firing pin strike. They are one helluva lot slower and less reliable than many other pocket guns. Yet, pocket carry is the place ( on the offside) for a back up gun.   

That is the reason why one helluva lot of civilians (including many members of this panel) and a bunch of cops, and more than a few military Spec Ops types, tuck a J-frame hammer-shrouded revolver into a pocket. I opt for a Berreta Tomcat .32 ACP with Crimson Trace laser grips, but the principle is the same. They come out clean & fast and there is no where for pocket lint to get into. This is a gun that will be carried a lot and shot little. It needs to be reliable for long term pocket carry. Not all guns are.

Small gun, offside pocket, dig it out smooth and snag free, and put two into the BGs face. Do that with a .32, and even a Mouse Gun will roar. The key is being able to reach it quickly if your primary gun, and maybe primary arm, are disabled... and deliver fire at close range... with 100% reliability.

If your primary gun is a 1911 where the safety presses down, or some other make where the safety presses up.... who really gives a damn if you’re grabbing.... pulling it smoothly out of whatever hiding place you had it in... and putting several rounds into the BG an “bad breath” distance, with a back up piece that doesn’t have the same “muscle memory & high stress” situation controls as your primary gun.

But, that’s just my opinion.


Kindest Regards
Chris Christian ... former BTDT for real.




   
 

[N.U.G.U.N.]

Heads up to all LCP owners
http://www.ruger.com/LCPRecall/index.html

I also posted on my blog about an experience we had with my wife's LCP.
http://nugun.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/ruger-lcp-recall/