Marine technique for reloading black rifle while in combat?

[Blackchurch]

Hello!

I just found out about GunFighter cast and it's awesome to listen to you guys talk about your passion. Very rad stuff.

So my question relates to how the Marines are trained to reload while in combat. I read somewhere (I think on AR15.com but don't quote me) that the Marines have no clear training on how to reload while in combat. At first I took it at face value but now after listening to the GunFighter cast that doesn't sound right to me. I don't pretend to know so I figured it would be better to ask.

Thanks!

[Dlshaw]

I think I know the exact article your talking about. Eric Shelton of the handgun podcast read it in one of his episodes. The article does a good job of getting across the importance of training, however it is not accurate at all in some of the statements made in in the article.

First I will say that I have been a Marine Infantryman since 1997. Recruit training throws a lot at you and its hard to retain everything but types, when and how to reload has been taught as long as I have been in. In fact when I was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor at Recruit Depot Paris Island, I taught the classes myself to hundreds of recruits. I can definitely see where someone could have missed it and to be honest we didn't have enough emphasis on reloads or clearing stoppages in my opinion. After completing recruit training, every infantryman goes to Infantry Training battalion (ITB) at the School of Infantry (SOI). At ITB there is much more in depth ranges and a better student to instructor ratio as they learn and apply basic weapon skills such as reloading.
After SOI a marine goes to his unit where they will conduct ranges and classes on a constant basis.

Reloading techniques have been in the curriculum for as long as I have been in.
I will say in that Marines defense that there has been in the past a school of thought that magazine retention is a must. This is due to our lack of funds as a whole and is more of a training scar than anything else. Having said that I must say that I have never sat in a class and heard the instructor tell the students to secure or retain a magazine during a speed reload.  The priority is and will always be to get the gun back up and running as fast as possible.

I am not going to speculate on the Marine who wrote the article but I have few ideas on how this issue of not knowing how to reload come about.

As I have already stated, I was taught in 1997 by NCOs in my unit and formal schools such as SOI  or security element course given at Special Operation Training Group to reload the exact same way I teach reloads today.

I cant tell you how many times I have ran across what we call the “Lance Corporal mentality”. That's when a Marine has the attitude that they have done this before and don't need to do it again or pay attention.  I am not saying that I believe this is the case with the Marine at all, I just don't understand how he could have missed it.

Another idea is that maybe he somehow was never present when reloads were covered. I find that very hard to believe but who knows, I also find it hard to believe that he was never taught to properly reload.

It could have been a case where he was failed by his NCOs and they just didn't take every opportunity to train him or themselves properly.

Had he been in my Platoon for OIFI he would have been as tired of reload and presentation drills as everyone else in my platoon.

As a whole the Marine Corps doesn't have it all figured out and we rely greatly on individual small unit leaders to conduct proper training after formal schools. Relying on small unit leaders is great in my opinion but its only as strong as that unit leader. I would hate to think that I failed to properly teach a Marine that ended up being paralyzed from his lack of training.

Anyway, if I keep rambling I will start talking about the things I want to change in the Marine Corps Marksmanship program for rifle and pistol and then I would have to get into the Army's program as well. I bother enough people on a weekly basis about that so I wont do it here.

Here is an article I wrote that covers reloads. http://nugun.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/basic-personal-skills-to-win-your-next-gunfight/

I also elaborated on the article and reloading in GC-019 http://www.gunfightercast.com/wordpress/2009/11/30/gc-019-three-individual-shooting-skills-needed-to-win-your-next-gunfight/

I hope that answers your question.

Daniel

[Chemsoldier]

Daniel;

Problems in the Army marksmanship teaching systems abound.  But to stay on reloads

The primary marksmanship instructor in any Army unit is the first line supervisor (Corporals, Sergeants and Staff Sergeants).  These individuals have a wide variety of training and teach a multitude of techniques as a result.
   a. They may teach approved army techniques out of the TM/FM that they learned as privates or when they were going through the drill instructor course (if they have done that)
   b. They may teach the approved curriculum that they are not comfortable or been trained in, but they dug open the book and taught themself.
   c. They may or may not have learned the approved way but then took the Combat Application Training Course (CAT-C) or other advanced course that teaches non-doctrinal techniques and now teach that to their soldiers. Many of these techniques are probably better, but CAT-C is not run often enough to train a sizable portion of the NCO pool and the manual writers still wont put the new material in the FMs.
   d.  They may teach their soldiers techniques they learned on the civilians side.  Some went to real schools, some teach MAGPUL video stuff.
   e. Some have no freaking clue and dont teach their soldiers much of anything

The result is a grab bag of techniques, most of them taught as "The" way to do things.  Its frustrating.  Lets not even talk about lack of weapons training for officers.  It makes me want to kick something.  I have learned more from the Appleseed Program than I have from the military. 

-Chem

[RJB3 USMC]

Daniel,

You covered that very well. I have been a Marksmanship Instructor for 5 years now, and have been in the Marine Corps for 15. If there is a place that does not teach Marines proper reloads, I have not seen it. That is saying a lot because as far as Marines go, I am Daniel's polar opposite. He is a Grunt, and I am in the Air Wing.

We have Marines that will go 3 years or more without shooting the rifle. (I had a Sgt last October that had not shot since boot camp. No fault of hers, just availability of ranges.) I know that I spend more time than the shooters want me to on reloads. By the end of the speed reload lesson my throat is always sore from yelling for them to hurry up. I also never teach to retain a mag in a speed reload, only retain durring tactical reloads (because there is still ammo in there).

I am going to have to read that article.

[MattCFII]

Just curious, how many Marines are issued a sidearm and a rifle?  My understanding is not that many outside of Special Ops or Officers.  Is there any training about transitioning to pistol? 

I'm of the school of thought for those of us that may be carrying both a rifle and a pistol and your rifle stops working due to either being empty or a malfunction you should transition to your pistol if the BGs are in pistol range.  Drawing your pistol is usually faster than a reload and malfunction clearance.  If you are outside of pistol range, take cover and reload (maybe with retention, maybe not) or clear the malf.  I think that's the better option for LEOs or civilian since most of us would have a pistol before we get to the rifle.  In the military, due to lack of issued pistols and longer engagement distances, I could see a more rifle only focused training.