.357 SIG vs 9mm Parabellum +P+ vs 10mm Automatic in the Land of Trucks and SUVs

[Anthony]

Hello Mas & Friends,

While I usually favor heavy caliber revolvers, lately I have been contemplating carrying a semiautomatic pistol for use against bad guys in and around heavily constructed vehicles (e.g., pickup trucks, SUVs, etc.) due to the fact that I am surrounded by such vehicles in my workplace parking garage, during my daily commute, and on the street when I run.

While I have a small collection of 10mm Automatic pistols, I have begun to wonder if I am missing out on something with the modern .357 SIG and 9mm +P+ loads (e.g., 124/125-grain Gold Dot HPs) when it comes to punching through metal and glass to neutralize a deadly threat.

What could the .357 SIG and/or 9mm +P+ offer me that a Glock 29 loaded with full power Double-Tap 165-grain Gold Dot hollowpoints is not?

Does the .357 SIG offer any advantages over the 9mm +P+ in tactical penetration or wound ballistics?

If you favor the 10mm Automatic in this role what load would you choose for this purpose?

Please be as specific as you can in your response as this is a very important issue for me.

- Anthony

[Charlie Foxtrot]

.
Interesting topic.  I look forward to Mas' input.

Which won't stop me from making a fool out of myself with my personal observations.

.357Sig:  A nasty, brutish, and short cartridge.  Uncomfortably snappy and loud in a converted G22.  However, the revolver cartridge it was designed to emulate is a noted performer against autos.  I'd put a lot of rounds downrange to test your equipment; the G22 I borrowed spit out a nearly full mag several times.  Embarrassing.    

9mm +P+: Even at the increased pressures +P+ allows, I can't believe it would perform to 357SIG or similar revolver levels.  But then, I've never been a big fan of the euro-pellet.  You don't have to tell me that I'm an idiot; my wife handles that chore quite well, thank you.    

10mm:  I have a G20.  I've never shot anything but paper, so I don't know how it would do when hunting Escalades.  The FBI certainly considered the round equal to the task.  The 155 gr Gold Dot comes highly recommended.  The 10 has supposedly has been used to take black bears, however, my gonads do not run to that size. If you can fire the 10mm Baby Glock, it might be right up your alley.    

YMMV

[Matt G]

10mm all the way.  Plus with the wide range of offerings in rounds your "zone of usefulness" is bigger than most other popular pounds.  Reference the PROARMS 10mm episode or wait for Chris's input.  I know he is a HUGE 10mm fan.

Matt G

[Chris]

I do not believe the .357 SIG would offer better barrier penetration than the 10mm. The reputation of the SIG round (well-deserved) is in equalling the performance of the 125 .357 Mag JHP in unarmored individuals. Some ballistic tests I did a number of years back in my water trap showed all the 124/125 grain SIG loads I tested would barely produce 12 inch ballistic gel equivilent penetration, with most being significantly less. The 147 grain Hornady XTP was a better bet; somewhere around 15 inches. Most of the 180 grain 10mm loads equaled or exceeded that. Some loads available today were not available then and not tested.   
If I KNEW I was going to have to blast through automobile glass/doors I would load the 180 grain Cor-Bon Bonded softpoint, the 180 or 200 grain Hornady XTP, or the 180 grain Gold Dot. My Glock 29 wears Advantage Tactical Sights and is zeroed for 180 grain loads at 15 yards. My normally carry load in Win 175 Silvertip, but the above loads also shoot to POA. If I'm wandering in bear or boar country the Cor-Bon load gets the nod.
I would prefer any of the above 10mm loads to any .357 SIG (with the possible exception of the 147 XTP) for the circumstances you describe.
Chris Christian

[Miggy]

The following are some pics I took of a retired police vehicle that belongs to a South Florida Law Enforcement Office. I assume it was used for training but I do not have the details. It show different calibers and how does a vehicle stand to them. Since the forum resizes the pictures, I added the link underneath so you can see the full size image.


http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/holy-car-1.jpg


http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/holy-car-2.jpg


http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/holy-car-3.jpg


http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/holy-car-5.jpg

I am assuming that the 9mm is of the +p persuasion since it a LEO vehicle and probably LEO trainers. You do the math.

[Doc Wesson]

Man.. Chris is an asset!!!  Listen to him... You don't have to do the math.. it is obvious and Chris is spot on in my book.. I say so... even though he is the master and I am the apprentice!!
Math backs it up all the way.. I will not list it.. but it is obvious... 10mm with the said projectile weight (wider and heavier than .357 Sig) soft nose gives penetration and the surface area needed for stopping after penetration in said media..
In .357 MAGNUM.. the heavier soft point would fit the bill.. .357 Sig could not match that, so in the auto for sure the 10mm in said weight gets the nod...  based on math an physics..

[flop-shank]

Anthony, this may not be an answer that will give you the clear cut solution that you're looking for. I'll defer to others, such as Chris, who are better qualified to do so. However, since you're in the same "handguns with an identity crisis" zone that I am, perhaps you will find the second gunfighter's experience of use. All that said, I'll reference the writings of two men who have BTDT.

The first would be Edmundo Mireles. Special Agent Mireles has written that while normal everyday cars aren't armored, when it comes to handguns against cars, they just about are. I have a feeling that this has changed somewhat with the better modern ammo that is available since his days as an FBI agent, but I doubt to the extent that it would be wise to disregard what he said.

The second would be Evan Marshall. I read a post of his on his forum a while back in which he mentioned that after a former partner of his was murdered in the early 1970s, he and his partner at the time (they were prowling the streets of Detroit looking for the killers) started carrying 6 1/2" S&W 29s stoked with 240 gr. JSPs. He said he wanted something that would work good on cars.

I have a hunch that a 10mm with super hardcast SWC (if the gun will feed them) might be the ticket into and through the car (?).

[Anthony]

Hello Again Everyone,

Chris:  Wow!  Thanks for the input.  In your gelatin testing did you ever test the terminal ballistics of a load after the bullet passed through windshield glass, sheet metal, etc.?  This is an area that the Texas DPS has liked about the .357 SIG since adopting it in the 1990s.  Two of my 10mm pistols are a Glock 20 and a 29 while the other two are Smith & Wesson autos.  I did relisten to your comments on the 10mm Auto podcast and made notes on the ammunition suggestions as well.

Miggy:  Thank you so much for the photos of the vehicles.  They were quite enlightening.

Flop-Shank:  As always, thanks for the wonderful input.  FYI...the only reason I am going away from the .41 and .44 Magnum revolvers on this one is due to the fact that I am trying to keep the weight down while I run in the mornings and would like the gun to double for when I am walking my two German Shepherds at night on a y-shaped leash.  I can reload an auto while holding back 150+ pounds of German Shepherd, but manipulating speedloaders becomes problematic.

- Anthony

[NavyBlue99TA]

He doesn't have much on 10mm guns, but there is a ton of info on penetration testing of various calibers at:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

There's even a section on the Buick o' Truth using 9mm and .40S&W.  Very interesting reading!

[Mike]

I know very little about ballistics, but I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm ball fired from a Beretta M9 will go through a windshield and still prove fatal. It's quite a bit weaker through doors, but it will still get the job done. Load up some hot rounds and I would have no problem trusting my life to it.

On another note, and please forgive my naivety, but when would you need to shoot someone through a car window/door? Wouldn't that make you the aggressor? I'm normally pretty good at coming up with scenarios, but this one escapes me.

[Daeglan]

I know very little about ballistics, but I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm ball fired from a Beretta M9 will go through a windshield and still prove fatal. It's quite a bit weaker through doors, but it will still get the job done. Load up some hot rounds and I would have no problem trusting my life to it.

On another note, and please forgive my naivety, but when would you need to shoot someone through a car window/door? Wouldn't that make you the aggressor? I'm normally pretty good at coming up with scenarios, but this one escapes me.

Well one example would be a case of road rage where a car tries to run you over. A car is a deadly weapon should one choose to use it that way.

[Mike]

Well one example would be a case of road rage where a car tries to run you over. A car is a deadly weapon should one choose to use it that way.

I suppose you are right, but it still seems pretty unlikely. However, I have yelled at runners that don't run on the sidewalk. Cyclists too for that matter. 

[Daeglan]

ou do realize it is illegal for bikes to ride on the sidewalk right?

[Chris]

Mike & Daeglan
Let's not start bickering here, fellas. 
Chris Christian - Moderator

[FullAuto]

Anthony,
Have you considered a rifle for this type of job? From what you described you might be asking the pistol to do too much or something that another platform could do far more effectively and efficiently.

-FullAuto

[Mike]

Mike & Daeglan
Let's not start bickering here, fellas. 
Chris Christian - Moderator

Not bickering at all, just a case of text not showing sarcasm. Sorry about that.

Anthony,
Have you considered a rifle for this type of job? From what you described you might be asking the pistol to do too much or something that another platform could do far more effectively and efficiently.

-FullAuto

+1

It seems to me that there is no real situation that you might need to fire your weapon into a car. That is unless you are in combat, and in that case, use your rifle. Draw whatever sidearm you have when your primary goes down. But if you are still concerned, check out the link that NavyBlue posted. From the tests on that site it seems like any old 9mm ball will do the job.

[Chris]

Mike,
A rifle is one of the preferred SD tools... or battle tools, if you will. I know. Used them well in Vietnam and Cambodia. Unfortunately, they are a bit impractical for CCW. And, any LEO who gets out of his unit on a routine car stop toting a rifle is going to have a short career. Public opinion... hysterical local news media.... etc.
As for the penetrative abilities of 9mm NATO Spec FMJ ball... yup... penetrates like a sonofagun! Some tests I had to do in the mid-1970s as a USN SAMI at NAS Jax showed that the penetration difference in creosoted telephone poles between Mil Spec 9mm and 7.62 was about an inch.
If all you're going to do is shoot up cars, that stuff works well. The drawback is that it ranks very low in actual "street results" when compared to contemporary 9mm JHP loads.
I think the OP question was directed to what rounds he could put into a handgun that would provide some degree of effective penetration on auto bodies, while still retaining a level of stopping power on unarmored targets.
As for a LEO having to fire his primary handgun into a car... check the current news. It happens frequently. I can also see a situation or two (not much more than that, however) where a CCW might as well.
The bottom line is that you will have to use what you have at hand. A handgun is the most "handy".... and most likely to be at hand. The best ammo for it is worthy of consideration.
Chris Christian

[FullAuto]

.....for use against bad guys in and around heavily constructed vehicles (e.g., pickup trucks, SUVs, etc.) due to the fact that I am surrounded by such vehicles in my workplace parking garage, during my daily commute, and on the street when I run......

Totally missed that part....Never mind my suggestion for a rifle....Given the conditions posed, a handgun is the best choice and I would say a 10 mm is the caliber.....sorry about that....

[Anthony]

Thank you, Chris.  All excellent points you make.  My apologies for taking so long to get back to this thread and contribute, but it has been an unusually busy week.

Is there a situation in which a civilian might be forced to fire at bad guys in a vehicle?  This question reminded me of one of Mas' dictums as well as two shootings that occurred in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in the mid-1990s just prior to the concealed carry law going into effect.  Mas has often stated that we carry guns for the worst case scenario and that we should train with that in mind.  In one case he was pointing out that practicing at 7-yards or less was inadequate to properly prepare for the full range of situations an individual might encounter.

Both of the shootings I mentioned earlier were gang related.  The first occurred in a suburb of Fort Worth and was a case of mistaken identity.  It was a drive by shooting in a typical neighborhood.  The gangbangers were looking for a specific member of a rival gang to execute so they were packing heavy.  They mistakenly identified a law abiding citizen who was out for a walk with his father as their target.  They made three or four passes firing on them with an SKS rifle equipped with an extended magazine.  The two men were not armed and both sustained multiple injuries.  The son never left the street alive.  The father survived and the perps were caught shortly thereafter.  The second shooting involved a gang initiation and the unusual practice of gang members venturing a long distance off of their turf into one of the most affluent neighborhoods in Fort Worth.  In this case I went to my initial CHL class with one of the victim's good friends.  The victim was a lifelong runner and was retired.  He lived in the Ridglea Country Club area and was shot while he was running by one of the gang members in the car.

The points about the rifle are well taken indeed.  I have followed Evan Marshall's lead and discreet keep a fighting rifle in my car on a daily basis as it is perfectly legal here in Texas to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle.  If stopped by a police officer it is never in plain sight to ensure everyone's safety and adhere to good manners.   Of course running with one is another matter.  The idea of walking with a registered Class III SIG 556 SBR with a 10-inch barrel and folding stock slung under a windbreaker is an interesting proposition though.  It actually would be quite legal according to some local Class III enthusiasts I have spoken with and my examination of the state penal code concurs with their assertions.

Beyond running I also walk my two German Shepherds in the evenings quite often with my wife while I run in the mornings.  If anyone plans on doing something to me while walking my dogs it is my assumption is that they either would be incredibly stupid or very well prepared if they were going to take me on along with two fully grown German Shepherds that do a very convincing police dog impersonation.  Further, with my Italian heritage, I look like a fit version of an extra from Sopranos or Good Fellas.  Bottom line...if something goes down they are planning on shooting first most likely.  So fast and effective return fire is the priority here.

It sounds like the 10mm Automatic is the way to go and I have a Glock 29 that would work nicely in my Bianchi Bellyband provided I have the manual safety conversion done to it.  I am somewhat apprehensive about carrying it in a bellyband with only the trigger mounted safety.

Am I being paranoid here?

Are there any loads in 10mm Automatic from the below links to Doubletap Ammunition and Buffalo Bore that anyone feels might be particularly effective against vehicles and unarmored humans in much the same way that the .357 SIG 125-grain Speer Gold Dot hollowpoint is?

Doubletap Ammunition 10mm Automatic Loads:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

Buffalo Bore 10mm Automatic Loads:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=24

FYI...the Doubletap loads marked "Brass Jacketed Hollowpoints" are Golden Saber bullets while the "Bonded Defense" loads are Gold Dot bullets.  I checked with Mike McNett over at Doubletap earlier today on this.

Hey Mas!  How about you chime in on this when you have a moment.  I'd love to get your input.

Keep the input coming.  I will be checking back throughout the weekend and responding to input and questions.

- Anthony

P.S. The one comment on the .44 Magnum made me wonder if I should just get the moonclip conversion to my Model 29 and carry the 180-grain Hornady XTP that roar out the muzzle at about 1600 fps!  People might wonder why I am leaning to one side so much while I am running.  Of course, I know Flop-Shank will approve!

[Mike]

I'll bet there is a local junkyard that would let you do some testing. Especially if you offer the owner to take a few shots too. Take a box of each type of ammunition and see what works the best. Not to mention shooting junk cars is loads of fun.