Why is the FN five-seven exluded from IDPA?

[Mike]

There is no division for the five seven. Why is that? Seems kind of silly to me. I don't mind shooting my XD or M&P, but my FSN is my favorite. Any idea if they will eventually include the 5.7? I know it would be a nightmare in the rules...

"Nothing smaller then 9x19 except the 5.7x28 and the 7.62 tokarev and any other obscure round someone dreams up that is smaller then 9x19 but every bit as effective even though it doesn't meet our power factor"

On a completely different note, why does the IDPA limit the magazine capacity to only 10 rounds? A proper defensive pistol is the one in my holster, and it holds more then 10. While I agree that it should never be about what you can afford, (like ipsc) I didn't buy a single stack for a reason. Just curious.

[Chris]

Mike,
The answer to all your questions is because they are the Rules. I didn't make them. I (and every other shooter) just has to live by them. I don't mean to sound flippant... I don't agree with all the rules either. But, they are the rules.
Chris Christian

[Kevin]

Mike,
You answered your own question on the 10 round mags. If they don't limit round count, a 33 round magazine for the Glock would smoke anything less, and we would be forced to buy a Glock (or maybe a hundred round drum) to compete in SSP. Same with the revolver. If you didn't shoot an 8 shot revolver, you wouldn't stand a chance, so they limit it to six rounds to put us all on the most common ground. Most of the rules in IDPA make a lot of sense. Some don't, but like Chris said, as long as we all have to live by them...
-Kevin

[Daeglan]

Imagine a 15 round or even a 19 round glock vs. a 1911. The Glock would win every time based on magazine capacity alone.  I believe the point was to compare shooters not their guns.

Although I think there ought to be a division that allows lasers and lights now.

[Mike]

Mike,
The answer to all your questions is because they are the Rules. I didn't make them. I (and every other shooter) just has to live by them. I don't mean to sound flippant... I don't agree with all the rules either. But, they are the rules.
Chris Christian

No need to get cranky, I was just asking because I know you guys do some chatting with the IDPA crew. Thought maybe they had mentioned something.

[Chris]

Mike,
Not cranky at all -- just factual. The rules are the rules and they are made in Berryville, Arkansas. Whether we agree with them or not, we have to follow them. I will not allow this forum to degenerate into an endless debate on the merits, or non-merits, of IDPA rules. If you want to shoot IDPA, learn the rules and follow them. If you don't like the rules, talk to Berryville.
Chris Christian (The not cranky... just realistic... Moderator).

[Mike]

Again, I understand (and follow) the rules. I shoot IDPA every chance I get. My question is simple...in your time as an IDPA shooter, having talked personally to the founders and rule makers of IDPA, have any of them ever mentioned the 5.7 round being considered for use in an IDPA sanctioned event sometime in the future.

Or as soon as you talk to them do they instantly tell you to shut up and follow the rules?

Just so we are crystal clear, I have no desire to debate here, I simply would like to know if anyone has heard from someone at IDPA as to why the 5.7, or the 7.62 have not been considered, or if they were considered and then shot down, what was the reasoning if any. Or more simply, what criteria did they use while making the rules?

Let me give an example...

"I was talking to Mr. X and he said that the 5.7 had significantly less recoil then 9mm and would give an unfair advantage to competitors that can afford the FSN, so the rule board decided to not allow anyone to use it"

Or even better...

"I was talking to Mr. X and he said that the 1911 has been around for 99 years, everyone and their brother has one, so we decided to make all the rules revolve around the 1911 and you can't get one in 7.62 or 5.7 so the rule board decided to not allow them in IDPA"

I didn't ask for debate in the original post, just an answer to a couple questions. If nobody knows the answer, then don't reply, or reply that you don't know, but you do know where the answer can be found.

[Chris]

I don't know the answers to the hypothetical questions you have just posed. But, I do know where the answer can be found. Call Robert Ray at IDPA HQ in Berryville, AR. He seems to be the head rule source at the moment, and you can make that call just as easily as I can.
Chris Christian

[John Strayer]

Mike

I think Robert Ray adressed some of your questions in Gail's interview with him at the IDPA Nationals podcast 39. As to the 10rd rule, you have to remember that IDPA is nation wide as well as international and was founded during the Clinton gun ban era. During that time only 10rd magazines were being produced. If IDPA had allowed standard capacity mags it would raised the cost of competing, during that time standard capicity Glock mags were going from $65 to $100. Figure $500 for a gun and $600 for mags to get started. The 10rd rule also makes for more reloads which is not a bad thing in my book, it also make the sport 50 state compliant.

John

[Chemsoldier]

The 5.7 is an issue in USPSA as well.  Like IDPA they require a 9mm or larger.  Even if they allowed it, if you are shooting production class you would be limited to 10 rounds.  I have met some 5.7 shooters who are kind of butt hurt that they cant use them in USPSA.

I think a reason there is no particular hurry to come up with a solution to the 5.7 shooters dilema in another discipline is the possible ramifications.  There are not enough 5.7 shooters to justify its own division.  If allowed to complete in one of the standard divisions it would probably take over.  20 rounds  and a very light recoil would make it devestating in Limited and Open class.  It would distort the weapons selection in a negative way.  I dont want to get into a ballistics debate but compared to other major handgun cartridges I believe the 5.7 has enough stopping power problems that it would not be a good idea to introduce it in a way that would muscle out calibers that are in use for serious work elsewhere.  That would take a sport like USPSA that already gets flak for excessively game like rules and place it way out in left field seperated from the LE and Military community (and most CCW folks as well).

My $.02


-Chem

[Mike]

I don't debate ballistics of the 5.7 round. Ill just post the chart...

Here are the velocities, projectile weights, and resulting muzzle energies of the 5.7x28mm ammunition types when fired from the P90, PS90, and Five-seveN, along with some other more basic data that people new to the 5.7 should find helpful.

   
Muzzle velocity:

|---------P90---------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|

SS190 -----(2350 fps)-------------(2600 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----
SS191 -----(2350 fps)-------------(2600 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----
SS192 -----(2350 fps)-------------(2600 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----
SB193 -----(1000 fps)----------------------------------------------------
T194 ------(2350 fps)--------------(2600 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----
SS195 -----(2350 fps)-------------(2600 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----
NEW SS195-(2220.5)---------------(1470.5)--------------(1970.5)-------
SS196 -----(1800 fps)-------------(1950 fps)-------------(1550 fps)-----
SS197 -----(1950 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-------------(1675 fps)-----
SS198 -----(2500 fps)-----------------------------------(2200 fps)----





Projectile weight:

SS190 -----------------32 grains (2.09 grams)-----------
SS191 -----------------32 grains (2.09 grams)------------
SS192 -----------------27 grains (1.81 grams)------------
SB193 -----------------55 grains (3.55 grams)------------
T194 ------------------27 grains (1.81 grams)------------
SS195 -----------------27 grains (1.81 grams)------------
SS196 -----------------40 grains (2.58 grams)------------
SS197 -----------------40 grains (2.58 grams)------------
SS198 -----------------27 grains (1.81 grams)------------





Muzzle energy:

|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|

SS190 ----(390 ft. lbs)--------------(480 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---
SS191 ----(390 ft. lbs)--------------(480 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---
SS192 ----(345 ft. lbs)--------------(420 ft. lbs)------------(275 ft. lbs)---
SB193 ----(120 ft. lbs)--------------------------------------------------
T194 -----(345 ft. lbs)--------------(420 ft. lbs)------------(275 ft. lbs)---
SS195 ----(345 ft. lbs)---------------(420 ft. lbs)------------(275 ft. lbs)---
SS196 ----(290 ft. lbs)--------------(340 ft. lbs)------------(215 ft. lbs)---
SS197 ----(340 ft. lbs)---------------(390 ft. lbs)------------(250 ft. lbs)---
SS198-------------------------------------------------------------------





Average penetration depth in 10% ballistic gelatin:

|---------P90-------|---------PS90---------|-----FiveseveN----|

SS190 ---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----
SS191 ---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----
SS192 ---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----
SB193 --------------------------------------------------------------
T194 ----(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----
SS195 ---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----
SS196 ---------------------------------------------------------------
SS197 --------------------------(16 inches)----------(10 inches)---
SS198--------------------------------------------------------------





Projectile type/behavior:

SS190 ---------------FMJ, Tumbles (no deformation)-----------
SS191 ---------------Tracer FMJ, Tumbles (no deformation)-----
SS192 ---------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------
SB193 ---------------Subsonic FMJBT (Sierra Game King)--------
T194 ----------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------
SS195 ---------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------
SS196 ---------------V-MAX, Expands with fragmentation--------
SS197 ---------------V-MAX, Expands with fragmentation--------
SS198-----------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------



I'm starting to agree with the 10 round rule. I think that the reload is a very important skill to master. By forcing a smaller magazine it allows for cheaper training, but still allowing for the reload. El Presidente is one of my favorite drills just because of the reload.

[Gail]

I think the 10 round rule is still a valid one because there are still some places in the country where magazines the hold more than 10 rounds are illegal, for instance Cook County, IL. You can live outside of Chicago but still be in the county, I lived in that limbo until I was rescued.

Gail

[Mike]

I lived in that limbo until I was rescued.

Gail

  We need to rescue the guys in Kali too.

[Jeff]

Regarding the 5.7 in competition; we wouldn't let a guy use it because we were worried it would mess up the steel.  I don't know if that was a valid concern or not.

Jeff

[Daeglan]

I lived in that limbo until I was rescued.

Gail

  We need to rescue the guys in Kali too.

Yes please come liberate us.

[MasAyoob]

Alas, there are only enough of us to liberate folks one at a time.

Like we did Gail. 

[Daeglan]

Weathers nice here we don't have hurricanes every year. Pretend we are Iraq

[MasAyoob]

Pretend you are Iraq?

Sorry, but there aren't enough to invade you, either...

Reminding  you that Florida accepts refugees,

Mas

[Daeglan]

it was worth a shot

[WayniacKT]

I didn't like the 10 round limit at first. But i have realized that it is actually a good thing in that i am made to do at least one or more reloads during a scenario. When i started IDPA I SUCKED at reloading under pressure/on the move etc. And now I still SUCK, but not as bad .