Question Concerning Podcast 57 & Home Defense Shotgun

[fredberry]

Hi Guys,

I found the discussion on the 20Ga. modified Remington 1100 shotgun to be very informative. One area, however, I found especially interesting was the comment that a 'tactical-looking' shotgun could have unfavorable legal consequences in a trial by jury just because it looks like an 'evil black rifle/shotgun'.

So here's my question: how do you think a jury would respond to a synthetic stock rifle/shotgun that has been painted pink or some other non-threatening color? What about camo? Have prosecuting attorney's successfully made an issue of the extended magazine?

Thanks in advance.

Fred

[Gail]

Hi Fred we were citing the research by Dr. Glenn Meyer. You can find an article he wrote on the topic here:
http://www.astcweb.org/public/publication/article.cfm/1/21/5/Weapons-Issues-and-the-Fears-of-the-Legally-Armed-Citizen

It is a very interesting study in human behavior.

Since he didn't test pink, purple or zebra-striped guns so anything said on that would be purely speculation.

Someone else would have to answer on the extended magazine issue but most anything can be made an issue in court.

Gail

[Chris]

I'm no legal expert and I don't play one on TV. Mas does that very well. But, with that said, I would be more concerned with the circumstances of the shooting than the type/color of the gun used. If persons unknown to you forced their way into your home and you were forced to shoot them, a jury of your peers may see your point of view irrespective of how rabid the prosecuter is. 
Chris Christian

[fredberry]

Gail, thanks for the link to the article.

There is no doubt that the questions I raise require an opinionated answer. However, there are some people whose opinions carry more 'take it to the bank' weight, e.g., Mas Ayoob's. Like the phrase '..seconds on the lips forever on the hips', the legal aftermath of even a righteous shooting that only took minutes if not seconds can last for years.

One of the most valuable services you provide is to make us more aware of all the factors associated w/self-defense w/firearms. I consider legal knowledge and preparation just as important as gun handling, tactics, training, etc. Because I live in the 'People's Republic of California', I hold the law/legal system here inherently more dangerous, more insidious than the 'bad guy' threat itself. I want to make the best choices in firearms, ammo, etc., taking into account the whole picture, but I am also trying to avoid asking questions that don't matter.

We have standardized on the 870 in 12 and 20Ga. with an LOP of 12-13". I have a number of 870's, both w/wood and synthetic stocks, that can be adapted to this LOP. Bottom line, does the color of the gun, whether it has a wood stock or the length of the magazine matter enough legally to do something about it?

Thanks for all you do for us 'Proarms' Addicts!

Fred

[Oldguy]

+1 on Fred.  We in the People's Republic would not be so paranoid if the legislature were not after our rights all the time.

[MasAyoob]

I wouldn't worry about a black or camo synthetic stock too much. They're advertised in Cabela's flyers and such, and popular in the hunting world. A well-prepared defense team should be able to establish that they don't reflect any sort of "Rambo mentality" on the part of the defendant.

best,
Mas

[fredberry]

Thanks, Mas, and I assume the same applies to the extended magazine tube?

Fred

[Bamm1]

Hello,

Does anyone know the chamber size on the Rivendell "Women's / Home Defense" Custom Remington 1100 20 gauge shotgun? 3 inch or 2 3/4 inch?  I checked out their website, which had some good info, but it doesn't specify chamber size.  And the interwebs lists both chamber sizes for the Remington 1100 20 gauge over its various incarnations.

Thanks, Tim

[MasAyoob]

Fred, the extended magazine tube is on the lists of "prohibited assault weapon features" (where's the vomiting smiley when I need it, dammit?) and therefore can be expected to be thrown at you by desperate lawyers trying to reinforce an invalid case. Be able to explain why it's there.

A home defense shotgun, unlike a hunting gun or skeet gun, is kept constantly loaded. In law enforcement, we've seen our shotgun magazine springs lose strength over the years, resulting in malfunctions. This makes it a good idea to download the mag by one. Since the 870 does not have an internal firing pin block, LE consensus is that it should not be stored with a shell in the chamber. This leaves you with three rounds in the gun if you have the standard magazine.  That makes an extended mag all the more important.

It would be hard for any attorney to argue that the responsible plan is to call 9-1-1 and ready your shotgun, covering the area of approach to the bedroom or "safe room," while waiting for the cavalry to arrive. Holding a long gun offhand for a long period of time ... which could be several minutes while the burglar loots the downstairs before making his way upstairs to be sleeping area, for example ... would be exhausting. The practical thing to do is find some cover and brace the gun.

With some cover surfaces and angles -- particularly if the muzzle is covering downwards, a stairwell for example -- you can't rest the barrel without the muzzle being oriented at an angle where the shot charge would strike the cover surface and be deflected off course. Resting the front edge of the standard magazine would be precarious, and in recoil the slide could be blocked by the edge of the cover surface, jamming the gun. The extended magazine makes an excellent rest in such circumstances, lifting the muzzle to a safer angle and preventing interference with the mechanism of the gun.

Bottom line: I'd go with the extended mag and be comfortable about my ability to explain it in court.

Best,
Mas

[rmarkob]

[SNIP]
A home defense shotgun, unlike a hunting gun or skeet gun, is kept constantly loaded. In law enforcement, we've seen our shotgun magazine springs lose strength over the years, resulting in malfunctions. This makes it a good idea to download the mag by one. Since the 870 does not have an internal firing pin block, LE consensus is that it should not be stored with a shell in the chamber. This leaves you with three rounds in the gun if you have the standard magazine.  That makes an extended mag all the more important.
[SNIP]

Mas, is the lack of an internal firing pin block also the case for the 11-87? I bought a 20ga youth model for my fiancee after listening to your Defensive Shotgun podcast and an exchange of emails with Gail after the Harrisburg LFI-I last year. If there's no internal firing pin block, I'm down to 3 in the tube, none in the chamber unless I add an extended mag tube.

I'd have been in the MAG-80 class this week to learn how to best run the 11-87, but the wedding is in a couple of weeks, and I'm on a short leash! (Plan is to get her to MAG-40, then take the MAG-80 together next time you come to Harrisburg)

Mark

[MasAyoob]

As far as I recall, Mark, that's the case.
best,
Mas